Rafi-Ghantasala singing capability debate
- From: Altaican <coolkuna@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:45:36 -0700 (PDT)
This is a pretty long post. I had been to a Rafi fan website recently.
In one of the forums, an interesting debate started between the
capabilities of Rafi against that of a South Indian (Telugu) film
playback singer named Ghantasala. The debate slowly culminated in mud-
slinging and name-calling before supporters of Ghantasala were
requested to find another board to post about their idol's
capabilities (understandably, since it was a Rafi website). In any
case, there were quite a few interesting posts during the debate (some
of which I am quoting in this post).
My purpose in posting this here is to clarify if these posters are
talking sense when it comes to classical music or if they are just
blowing hot-air using half-baked classical music terms (I have zero
knowledge of classical music). I am posting a couple of posts of one
Mr.Khan. Can someone verify if the raags that he has mentioned
actually correspond to the songs?
The website is here (there are plenty of posts, I am just quoting the
ones that I am interested in below)
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
These are the songs of Ghantasala put forth by his followers, some of
whom claim that neither Rafi nor Manna Dey can sing classical songs
with as much ease and perfection that Ghantasala can.
1. Shiva Shankaree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
2. Jaya Bheri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAB7Q1pvcpw
3. Maya Bazaar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA
4. Telugu version of "Chal Ud ja Re Panchi"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nra86TX__hc
5. Telugu original of famous Kuhu-Kuhu bole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxnuuX_hZQ
There was one poster in the Rafi fan board called Khan, who claims he
has 35+ years in classical music. After hearing the first song (Shiva
Shankaree) of Ghantasala, he writes (I wish I could provide a direct
URL link to the exact message, which would shorten this message quite
a bit, in case it is too lengthy to read, please please read posts
numbering 611, 612, 613, 616, 620, 621, 627, 628, 639, 643 and 645 on
the following webpage, especially posts 612 and 645,
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
):
Khan: " Thank you very much for the link and song. I am a hindusthani
musician with a small experience of only 35 plus years. I have seen
many concerts of many hindusthani musicians and rafi sahab is one of
my favourite hindusthani singer.
Ref. your post 608 , I have carefully heard the shiva shankari song
here by ghantasala thrice and his voice range. I am not able to stop
acknowledging the wonderful presentation by this south indian legend.
With my experience, I can say that the song is based on the darbari
kannad rag, and during my life time I have not heard anybody rendering
the rag in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did. Not even rafi
sahab could render in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did (for
instance o duniya ke rakhwale from baiju bawra film in the rag). In
this song, ghantasala has touched the top ni note in the top range (no
bollywood song or rafi sahab song has been composed in that top range
and it is very difficult to sing there) and in the same way the lowest
dha note in the lower range with ease and comfort and shifting notes
with complete clarity which is possible only for a singer (like
ghantasala sahab) with complete command over a rag.
The speciality of the legend in this song is without sacrificing his
carnatic style he has created a hindusthani sensation thus mixing the
blend of both styles and which is possible only for a gifted and
creative singer. I feel in my humble experience even the great rafi
sahab has not reached that level in singing telugu songs because he
sounds only hindusthani but could not sound the carnatic style. (I
have heard rafi sahab’s telugu songs)
Mr. gani, the voice, highpitch, clarity and command over rag are in
complete harmony and perfection by ghantasala and full 100 marks to
him. I have never heard such song in my life and perhaps bollywood or
rafi sahab has no such type of song to their credit. This point will
be completely agreed by hindi fans of rafi sahab also after they hear
this shiva shankari song by ghantasala
I request, binu nair ji and other hindi friends, to be secular and
without prejudice kindly listen to the song in post 608 and I fully
guarantee that you might not have heard such song in your lifetime. I
being a musician, am forced to acknowledge this, despite being a great
rafi fan, because as a musician I have to do justice to the correct
musician. Pl. don’t mistake me, but in this particular song, I have to
give credit to ghantasala sahab ( you too have to give after you hear
him)
Finally binu nair ji (your post pl. 609), I am an elderly man with 55
plus years. I feel that you will change your opinion of the word
second as stated in your message after you hear shiva shankari song in
post 608, my request is whatever your opinion may be, please hear once
the song here (you wil hear again once you hear it specially the last
1 minute in the song) and post your views with open and pure
conscience. I am also a great rafi fan and man with hindusthani
knowledge pl. you may kindly note."
After hearing the songs 3, 4 and 5 listed above of Ghantasala, Mr.Khan
writes:
"I have heard all 3 songs. I can say only one thing. What a stupendous
melodious voice is of ghantasala sahab, While hearing i was only
thinking this : Why I missed such singer all these years. Simply
marvellous and incomparable.
this is my analysis for all the 3 songs.
The first song duet Lahiri Lahiri from mayabazar film is composed in
the bhoop raga which corresponds to the mohan of carnatic. The
composition is par excellence and ghantasala sahab singing the rag is
even more par excellence and simply incomparable. A stupendous
presentation and equal incomparable soft and melodious voice is the
voice of ghantasala. The lady singer’s voice is also fine.
The second song of ghantasala sahab, which is similar to rafi sahab’s
chal ud ja re panchi, is composed in yaman rag and is the famous
kalyan rag of carnatic. Again ghantasala sahab dominates, i.e. his
pitch is more high than rafi sahab’s song and the voice also more
melodious. Ghantasala sahab voice is simply commendable in high
pitches ( i again recall shiva shankari song). Rafi sahab has excelled
in this song in his usual hindusthani style but on comparison of both
songs, my analysis is ghantasala sahab dominates in this song.
The third song by ghantasala sahab and krishnaveni behan is the famous
one from suvarna sundari film which is the kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya by
rafi-lata pair in hindi. This is a mixture of numerous rags and the
music composer deserves the appreciations and also ghantasala sahab
for having rendered a par excellence beauty to the song (again i
recall shiva shankari song). The depth of classical music and
presentation by ghantasala sahab is simply supreme what I can say.
Since this song was first sung in telugu, rafi sahab might have
definitely heard this prior to his singing, but I don’t know why he
could not dominate (whereas ghantasala sahab has dominated in chal ud
ja re panchi after it was sung by rafi sahab). As usual, rafi sahab
has sung in his beautiful and melodious voice in his hindusthani style
but the depth in the rag and music, which is present in full form in
ghantasala sahab’s voice is lacking in voice of rafi sahab. Ghantasala
sahab’s voice (in the last para of the song - last 4 lines) is super
melodious. Rafi sahab’s melody is equally attractive, but the
difference lies in depth of melody and classical music where
ghantasala sahab displays an edge. The main difference everybody
(especially musicians) can note easily in this song is:
Ghantasala sahab is at complete ease and having full control over the
rag and is without any discomfort in the entire song whereas I have
noticed rafi sahab struggling and facing discomfort to some extent in
some places (especially the rag in the beginning) and the last 4
lines. This may be due to the composition of the song in the carnatic
style, whereas ghantasala sahab is master thereby enabling him to
dominate. I personally feel that this song, since has shades of
carnatic music, must have been rendered by ghantasala sahab (with
little practice of hindi language) and lataji in hindi instead of rafi-
lata wherein it would have become much famous.
Lata Mangeshkar is at her usual best in this song, and the telugu lady
singer, though perfect in classical rendering of the song, falls back
behind lata’s rendering. "
In one of the forums, an interesting debate started between the
capabilities of Rafi against that of a South Indian (Telugu) film
playback singer named Ghantasala. The debate slowly culminated in mud-
slinging and name-calling before supporters of Ghantasala were
requested to find another board to post about their idol's
capabilities (understandably, since it was a Rafi website). In any
case, there were quite a few interesting posts during the debate (some
of which I am quoting in this post).
My purpose in posting this here is to clarify if these posters are
talking sense when it comes to classical music or if they are just
blowing hot-air using half-baked classical music terms (I have zero
knowledge of classical music). I am posting a couple of posts of one
Mr.Khan. Can someone verify if the raags that he has mentioned
actually correspond to the songs?
The website is here (there are plenty of posts, I am just quoting the
ones that I am interested in below)
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
These are the songs of Ghantasala put forth by his followers, some of
whom claim that neither Rafi nor Manna Dey can sing classical songs
with as much ease and perfection that Ghantasala can.
1. Shiva Shankaree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX17lXOq7mU
2. Jaya Bheri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAB7Q1pvcpw
3. Maya Bazaar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuSgSHKBySA
4. Telugu version of "Chal Ud ja Re Panchi"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nra86TX__hc
5. Telugu original of famous Kuhu-Kuhu bole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxnuuX_hZQ
There was one poster in the Rafi fan board called Khan, who claims he
has 35+ years in classical music. After hearing the first song (Shiva
Shankaree) of Ghantasala, he writes (I wish I could provide a direct
URL link to the exact message, which would shorten this message quite
a bit, in case it is too lengthy to read, please please read posts
numbering 611, 612, 613, 616, 620, 621, 627, 628, 639, 643 and 645 on
the following webpage, especially posts 612 and 645,
http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/true-voice-mohd-rafi.html/comment-page-25/#comments
):
Khan: " Thank you very much for the link and song. I am a hindusthani
musician with a small experience of only 35 plus years. I have seen
many concerts of many hindusthani musicians and rafi sahab is one of
my favourite hindusthani singer.
Ref. your post 608 , I have carefully heard the shiva shankari song
here by ghantasala thrice and his voice range. I am not able to stop
acknowledging the wonderful presentation by this south indian legend.
With my experience, I can say that the song is based on the darbari
kannad rag, and during my life time I have not heard anybody rendering
the rag in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did. Not even rafi
sahab could render in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did (for
instance o duniya ke rakhwale from baiju bawra film in the rag). In
this song, ghantasala has touched the top ni note in the top range (no
bollywood song or rafi sahab song has been composed in that top range
and it is very difficult to sing there) and in the same way the lowest
dha note in the lower range with ease and comfort and shifting notes
with complete clarity which is possible only for a singer (like
ghantasala sahab) with complete command over a rag.
The speciality of the legend in this song is without sacrificing his
carnatic style he has created a hindusthani sensation thus mixing the
blend of both styles and which is possible only for a gifted and
creative singer. I feel in my humble experience even the great rafi
sahab has not reached that level in singing telugu songs because he
sounds only hindusthani but could not sound the carnatic style. (I
have heard rafi sahab’s telugu songs)
Mr. gani, the voice, highpitch, clarity and command over rag are in
complete harmony and perfection by ghantasala and full 100 marks to
him. I have never heard such song in my life and perhaps bollywood or
rafi sahab has no such type of song to their credit. This point will
be completely agreed by hindi fans of rafi sahab also after they hear
this shiva shankari song by ghantasala
I request, binu nair ji and other hindi friends, to be secular and
without prejudice kindly listen to the song in post 608 and I fully
guarantee that you might not have heard such song in your lifetime. I
being a musician, am forced to acknowledge this, despite being a great
rafi fan, because as a musician I have to do justice to the correct
musician. Pl. don’t mistake me, but in this particular song, I have to
give credit to ghantasala sahab ( you too have to give after you hear
him)
Finally binu nair ji (your post pl. 609), I am an elderly man with 55
plus years. I feel that you will change your opinion of the word
second as stated in your message after you hear shiva shankari song in
post 608, my request is whatever your opinion may be, please hear once
the song here (you wil hear again once you hear it specially the last
1 minute in the song) and post your views with open and pure
conscience. I am also a great rafi fan and man with hindusthani
knowledge pl. you may kindly note."
After hearing the songs 3, 4 and 5 listed above of Ghantasala, Mr.Khan
writes:
"I have heard all 3 songs. I can say only one thing. What a stupendous
melodious voice is of ghantasala sahab, While hearing i was only
thinking this : Why I missed such singer all these years. Simply
marvellous and incomparable.
this is my analysis for all the 3 songs.
The first song duet Lahiri Lahiri from mayabazar film is composed in
the bhoop raga which corresponds to the mohan of carnatic. The
composition is par excellence and ghantasala sahab singing the rag is
even more par excellence and simply incomparable. A stupendous
presentation and equal incomparable soft and melodious voice is the
voice of ghantasala. The lady singer’s voice is also fine.
The second song of ghantasala sahab, which is similar to rafi sahab’s
chal ud ja re panchi, is composed in yaman rag and is the famous
kalyan rag of carnatic. Again ghantasala sahab dominates, i.e. his
pitch is more high than rafi sahab’s song and the voice also more
melodious. Ghantasala sahab voice is simply commendable in high
pitches ( i again recall shiva shankari song). Rafi sahab has excelled
in this song in his usual hindusthani style but on comparison of both
songs, my analysis is ghantasala sahab dominates in this song.
The third song by ghantasala sahab and krishnaveni behan is the famous
one from suvarna sundari film which is the kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya by
rafi-lata pair in hindi. This is a mixture of numerous rags and the
music composer deserves the appreciations and also ghantasala sahab
for having rendered a par excellence beauty to the song (again i
recall shiva shankari song). The depth of classical music and
presentation by ghantasala sahab is simply supreme what I can say.
Since this song was first sung in telugu, rafi sahab might have
definitely heard this prior to his singing, but I don’t know why he
could not dominate (whereas ghantasala sahab has dominated in chal ud
ja re panchi after it was sung by rafi sahab). As usual, rafi sahab
has sung in his beautiful and melodious voice in his hindusthani style
but the depth in the rag and music, which is present in full form in
ghantasala sahab’s voice is lacking in voice of rafi sahab. Ghantasala
sahab’s voice (in the last para of the song - last 4 lines) is super
melodious. Rafi sahab’s melody is equally attractive, but the
difference lies in depth of melody and classical music where
ghantasala sahab displays an edge. The main difference everybody
(especially musicians) can note easily in this song is:
Ghantasala sahab is at complete ease and having full control over the
rag and is without any discomfort in the entire song whereas I have
noticed rafi sahab struggling and facing discomfort to some extent in
some places (especially the rag in the beginning) and the last 4
lines. This may be due to the composition of the song in the carnatic
style, whereas ghantasala sahab is master thereby enabling him to
dominate. I personally feel that this song, since has shades of
carnatic music, must have been rendered by ghantasala sahab (with
little practice of hindi language) and lataji in hindi instead of rafi-
lata wherein it would have become much famous.
Lata Mangeshkar is at her usual best in this song, and the telugu lady
singer, though perfect in classical rendering of the song, falls back
behind lata’s rendering. "
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